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Welcome to the Confidence Curve with Ashley and Rick Bowers, where personal and professional journeys define the art of scaling with confidence.
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Whether you're a business leader navigating change or someone seeking personal growth, this podcast offers insights and actionable advice to help you thrive.
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Now let's dive into today's conversation with our incredible guest.
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Welcome to the Confidence Curve.
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I'm Rick Bowers and I'm excited to have our guest today, caleb Marsh, with Red Legend, and he's kind of that serial entrepreneur from a young age where he's kind of started and done a lot of different things, enjoys putting the different teams and things together to kind of get things done.
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So with that, welcome Caleb.
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Thanks for having me Rick Excited to kind of dig into your story and kind of where you've kind of grown over the years and how the different events have shaped what your current business is.
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So maybe you can start with a little bit of background on on red legend yeah, so, uh, I mean, red legend is a video production company.
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We serve businesses primarily in, like, the trades and contracting space, um and uh, we got started in a way that dovetails nicely into what we focus on today.
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Like I tell the team, we are storytellers, first video, second, um.
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So if we wake up and it's the year 1802, uh, and our cameras stop charging, we show up to work.
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We do the same job.
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We just have to figure out different tools, uh, versus the videographer, um, which there are a lot of great storytellers out there.
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But if you're just a technician, your camera camera stops charging.
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You're out of a job.
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We started.
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I was actually 11 years old.
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I was an extra on a film set that shot up in northern Arizona.
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No one's ever seen what was made.
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It was History Channel.
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It was fine.
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But I fell in love with the process.
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I was like, okay, I don't care about being in front of the camera and the output wasn't great, but they had a camera on a crane, on a truck, filming a horse.
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I was like I'm going to do this when I grow up, followed a production assistant around that whole day.
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He showed me a ton of things.
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I started getting on film sets.
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And then, 16 years old, got hired with my good buddy that lived down the street to make make a video.
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It's a one minute video for a local school, private school, and they aired it in the uh movie theater up in payson where I grew up.
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Um, like you know, the local ads before the actual previews start, so we would buy movie tickets, uh, show up 20 minutes early, watch our video and leave.
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Um, and that was.
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That was a game changer for me, because I always wanted to go hollywood director, producer, like that's where storytelling lives.
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And then we got paid to tell a story.
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It took us half a day to shoot, uh, and it was all of the same techniques, all the passion and working with people that were actually making a difference, doing something that we thought was worth doing.
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So it kind of clicked that we could maybe do this for a living.
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And then we said, hey, let's start a business.
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How hard could that be?
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And seven years later, here we are.
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Okay, that's exciting.
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It's really cool that at such a young age you were able to kind of like pinpoint exactly what it was that you wanted to do.
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And a lot of people struggle with that, whether they they go through college and change their major a few times or they don't go to college because they're not sure what they want to do.
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But having that vision from such a young age, it's awesome.
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It was a blessing, I will say.
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I started my degree in software engineering and IT Because I was like, well, you know this film thing.
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There's no way I'm going to make money doing that, so I'm going to have a fallback in case it doesn't work.
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Learned early on in the business that having a fallback is a terrible idea.
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You've got to just be all in.
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But that actually led to me starting another business that I own, which is a software development company.
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So I've got that skill set.
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I love that world.
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I just can't write code for eight hours a day.
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I'd go nuts.
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Yeah, I can't imagine doing that either.
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So so you had a an interesting internship as you were coming up in the ranks.
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Yeah, uh.
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I spent a year over in Dubai.
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Um first interned at a uh like a data analytics company that was mind numbing Um, and then my boss there took mercy on me and connected me with a friend who ran a production company and they I mean they did ads for Emirates Airlines and big you know, big name productions and that just cemented the idea of all of the stuff that we love to do with telling stories we can do for businesses and we don't have to compromise on storytelling to do corporate video.
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yeah yeah, I had a chance to to go to dubai when I was with tti and early 2000s.
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It's a it's a really interesting place and cool city and, other than the business aspect of it, I think my highlight was getting to ski in the indoor ski slope, which was pretty cool yep, molly emmer, it's spent a lot of time there in our first conversation we we spent a lot of time talking about the word story or defining a story, so let's dig into that a little bit.
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Yeah, about two years ago, a buddy of mine asked me a question that I should have known the answer for and I didn't, and it bothered me.
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And he does web design super good at his job.
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I do video.
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We send each other a lot of work and he said hey, caleb, you're a storyteller, right.
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And I was like, yeah, like I'm a professional, I get paid for it, I've won awards for it, we're good at storytelling.
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And he was like, awesome, what's a story?
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And I said let me get back to you on that.
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I don't know, uh.
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So I went and I asked a dozen plus of my filmmaker friends, people with like professional storyteller in their bio, and they said, oh, you know, story is like like storytelling, like, uh, maybe you know beginning, middle end, which is the structure of a story, but that, but there's a lot of things that have a beginning, middle and end that aren't a story.
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Didn't get a single good definition, bothered the crap out of me, and so I went on a deep dive, researching what is a story, trying to understand the philosophy of storytelling, like the way to think about story at a fundamental level, universal, because that is going to unlock all of the applications.
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I know for a fact that in the business world we are not using storytelling the way that we could and should, and there are a lot of great frameworks out there and they tend to be these sort of top down approaches of, like you know, story.
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Brandald miller, that's the perfect one, it's genius, it's great, it works incredibly well.
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If you go all in, the certification is worth it, like it's a good system and it's top down and it's one structure that's applied multiple different ways.
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Uh, and it doesn't truly answer the question what is a story like?
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What's the universal definition?
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So and I'm open to feedback on this because it's still fairly fresh, a year or two old, but the definition we found that really works well is a story has three pieces.
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It's got a character, a journey and a transformation.
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The problem we fall into as storytellers, especially in our industry, is we focus on the character, because you got a character that goes through this journey and at the end they reach this transformation.
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So we start with the character, which makes sense.
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You and I are characters, we are human beings and we are on journeys and in our story, like our life story, we have not yet reached our final transformation.
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We're still alive, um, so we think character journey it's very intuitive to us.
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The interesting bit when you're telling a story is the transformation, and people know this like it intuitively makes sense.
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It's kind of the way we structure stories.
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It's not a groundbreaking definition.
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The problem is, if you start with the character, you haphazardly end up at a transformation, and that's the part that matters.
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What we found is when we're telling a story for business, we start with the transformation and reverse, engineer the character and the journey that get us there.
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And all of a sudden, when we are telling a story, whether it's on video or we're just advising in there, you know writing it or speaking it, or it's in a conversation that story becomes shorter're going to and not bringing in superfluous fluff that feels good to talk about but isn't the point.
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So that character journey transformation model completely changed the way that we approach video, sort of like it.
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It changed the way we thought about it, like intuitively, we're good at storytelling, so the videos didn't look that much different, the structure wasn't that different, but we understood it, we knew why we were doing what we were doing.
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That was powerful.
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So some of the impact that you get is being able to get to the point for lack of better words sooner with your stories and make that impact so that the transformation can happen.
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Is that one way to say it?
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Yeah, and it's sooner and it's more intentionally.
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Okay, because we want to take the viewer on a journey.
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Right, they are a character and you want to transform their mindset.
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If you're a business, you're in the job of changing people's minds Period, end of story or digging a trench but for any sort of marketing, sales, operation, leadership, like, your job is to change people's minds and you're not just going to tell them the transformation that you want and they're going to flip.
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So you have to treat them like a character and take them on a journey, which means you may need to tell multiple stories to make them feel heard and understood and then willing to listen, and then listen, then understand how to apply it.
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Like there's a lot of psychology.
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That isn't storytelling.
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That story supports.
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Okay, it was interesting.
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Yesterday I did a communication workshop for a cohort that was going through a leadership process and one of the people sitting next to the person next to her she's like I understand the details, but I like to tell the stories.
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And she's like my husband will say what are the facts?
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And she's like, well, I'm getting to that, but listen to my story.
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And then the next person was like but I just like bullet points and so people like to communicate in in very different ways, but that storytelling is such a powerful process.
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How can businesses get more out of the story?
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The first thing is to first understand what a story is and start looking for transformations.
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That's the biggest thing.
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If you go out in the world and you look for transformations and then think who is the character and what journey did they go on to get to the transformation that people care about, that alone you're now a 10 times better storyteller, as opposed to the intuitive my grandma betty one time.
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Which character, journey, transformation, it's all there.
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That's the way it's structured.
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We're just not taking advantage of it.
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I would say for businesses, break it down.
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There's really three buckets that your stories are going to fall into.
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The first is company, second is product or process service and the third is customer.
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So what that means is you've got stories about the company and the people in the company and you know the core values fall into that.
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Like how do we apply our core values in the real world?
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That's a great story to tell, not just like here's our core value, but here's what it means.
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We had a fork in the road, character on a journey, had this obstacle and here's the transformation we reached.
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That's a core value applied.
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That's a type of story.
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So the company stories are about the company and the people inside the company.
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The product or service or process story is about the thing that you make, the thing that you offer.
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You ever watch the show how it's Made?
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Yeah, great show, grew up on it.
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You'll sit there for 20 minutes and you'll start with just some block of plastic and you'll end up with an empty water bottle.
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These are two of the most mundane, boring everyday objects.
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And yet you just spent 20 minutes of your life that you'll never get back, glued to the TV, because there is a character on a journey that reached a transformation.
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Like that show is masterful.
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Storytelling about a product, a widget, um, so uh.
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You've got the.
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That's the, the product or the service story, and you can.
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We work with a ton of service-based businesses.
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They have stories about like here's how I, here's how we diagnose and change a hvAC part, whatever.
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Then there's the customer stories.
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These are insanely powerful, but they're not the only story you should be telling.
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You should typically lead as a business with the customer story if you're trying to attract customers.
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Customer stories, we think like customer testimonial, especially on the video front.
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Everyone wants customer testimonials.
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It's a really powerful type of story.
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But there's other ones.
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There's like the customer referral, which is not hey, I'm Joe and here's why I bought from this company.
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It's hey, I'm Joe and here's why I sent my grandma to buy from this company.
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If you're trying to build trust, that is a powerful story to tell.
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Ume trusted his grandma.
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I can, I can trust him myself.
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Um, it's like the customer referral story.
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There's the uh community impact story which is um, we'll take that, that hvac example.
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Uh, they are, um, like hvac company does work for a school.
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You could get the customer testimonial principal saying, oh, they saved our behinds and whatever.
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Uh, you get the referral story which principal saying oh, they saved our behinds and whatever.
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You could get the referral story which is however, they got connected in there.
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Or you could say here's a kid and here's their life and here's how much this school means to them and here's how their life was impacted by being able to show up at school on a hot, 118 degree day in May because of this HVac company and here's how that affected them and their family.
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That's the community impact story and it falls under that customer story bucket.
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Um, but it's.
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There's so many types of stories that people don't even think to tell.
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They just go ah, customer testimonial, or I'll tell how the company started or I'll show you how it's done, but there's a lot more nuance that could be found there.
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And it really helps the potential customers or existing customers relate to the organization, because once you get that connection with the customer, it's more likely that they're going to stick with you, even if a cheaper brand or a cheaper option comes down the line, because they have that connection.
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Yep, when you're telling those three types of stories, here's what they do to people.
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You've got the company story which says I like these people, I could see myself working with them.
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You got the product or the service story, which is they know what they're doing, I trust them to perform the work, uh.
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Or I trust their thing they manufacture.
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And the customer story says they changed someone else's life, I could see them changing mine.
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You got to tell all three of those together.
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If you do that, you are now harnessing storytelling in a very analytical, cold way, but it it works incredibly well, yeah.
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Yeah, so when we had a conversation the other day and Ashley was involved, we talked a little bit about how storytelling is a little bit like building that strategy for the business's future, where you have kind of where you're at, how you're going to get there, what, what you want to accomplish and things.
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So how do you see storytelling as part of building a winning strategy for the company?
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so it's actually our, our system that we built.
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Um, call it story lab.
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Uh, has 27 different types of stories that we tell.
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What you just talked about, there is the vision for the future story.
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Um, that is a very useful story to tell.
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First, as an entrepreneur, especially if you're small to yourself, you've got to buy into that and you've got to write it down and you've got to remind yourself of it, sometimes multiple times a day, through the tears, through the blood and sweat.
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You talk about mindset.
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All that is is telling yourself a story that you believe in, even when it's hard to believe in it.
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Then you tell that to your key stakeholders leaders, partners, vendors, clients, the world like talking about that vision for the future.
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Uh, that is the strategy.
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Like a business strategy, a business plan is just that vision for the future broken out into a lot of numbers.
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Yeah, it's.
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It's just a story at the end of the day.
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Yeah, but it's powerful, because that's one of the things that we do at apex is we try to make sure that the vision of the organization and the people are connected, so that those people are are really driving that vision forward.
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They're not just doing a job, wondering how their work is really impacting the organization.
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They people want to be part of something bigger and people struggle with what are the right ways to tell the story, so it's it's can be just internal communication where that's it's powerful.
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What you do is powerful as well.
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Think about it this way If you've got people like mission and vision, which vision is what I want the world to look like?
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Mission?
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is what we're going to do every day to get there.
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You probably do a lot of work with people on mission and vision.
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Yeah, it's incredibly important.
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Imagine having a mission with no vision.
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Yeah, that's a journey with no transformation.
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It's like we're going to we're going to do all this hard work yeah, we're going to do all this hard work, yeah, and then you just end it there.
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No, we're going to do all this hard work and it's going to get us to this transformation.
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We're going to literally change the world.
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Yeah, well, now you got a story that transformation is everything.
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Yeah, I think it was in a Patrick Lencioni book or something.
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It's like starting out your journey, where you go to the corner, you turn right, you go to the next corner, you turn right, you go to the next corner, you turn right, and you just keep repeating that process.
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Well, you haven't done anything but go around the block, and so you really have to understand where the entire journey is taking you, because otherwise you're just turning right and you don't ever get to that end destination that you want to get to.
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Yeah, so how does a company know when they're ready for your services?
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So I mean we've got monetary minimums, but they're not much.
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We generally work with companies in the trade space.
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Call it $2 to $50 million in revenue, or divisions inside of larger companies that are doing that In professional services.
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If the margins are higher, as low as about a million in revenue, or divisions inside of larger companies that are doing that in professional services.
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If the margins are higher, as low as about a million in revenue.
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What I will say is this if you are in business, in leadership, in sales or in marketing, then or if you're a human being, or if you're a human being, start using stories immediately Like there's, there's.
00:19:41.416 --> 00:19:42.138
It just makes life easier.
00:19:42.138 --> 00:19:47.483
If you understand how to tell a story to change people's minds and it kind of sounds evil.
00:19:47.483 --> 00:19:50.535
Right, oh, I'm going to manipulate people and change their minds.
00:19:50.535 --> 00:19:52.038
But no, you're.
00:19:52.038 --> 00:19:56.008
You're trying to get work done and you need people to help you to get there and you need to build a team.
00:19:56.008 --> 00:19:59.614
And whether you're leading up or work done, and you need people to help you to get there and you need to build a team.
00:19:59.614 --> 00:20:06.929
Whether you're leading up or down the chain of command or lateral, use stories to help people understand where you're trying to go and how it benefits them.
00:20:06.929 --> 00:20:08.441
Talk about their transformation.
00:20:09.076 --> 00:20:10.634
Yeah, and it comes down to communication.
00:20:10.634 --> 00:20:17.362
Whether you're a salesperson, you're an accountant, you're leading a company, it's all about communication.
00:20:17.362 --> 00:20:20.344
And how clearly are you getting your point across?
00:20:20.344 --> 00:20:25.661
How clearly do you set the expectations for somebody, even if you're delegating something?
00:20:25.661 --> 00:20:30.858
It's like you can't just say paint the wall because it's like, okay, which wall?
00:20:30.858 --> 00:20:34.965
What color, I mean, what sheen, all of these things.
00:20:34.965 --> 00:20:37.910
So you have to be very specific in this process.
00:20:37.910 --> 00:20:46.067
What have you done in terms of building your own company, red Legend?
00:20:46.067 --> 00:20:52.248
What have you done from a standpoint of using videos to maybe inspire the team?
00:20:52.875 --> 00:20:58.540
Yeah, I will say this these cobblers' kids have minimal shoes.
00:20:58.540 --> 00:21:05.069
Okay, um, we've, uh, we put a lot of energy into other people's companies and not enough into our own.
00:21:05.069 --> 00:21:09.045
Um, we're actually making a hire in probably two weeks.
00:21:09.045 --> 00:21:14.582
That's going to free up a ton of time and that person is going to spend one day a week making internal content.
00:21:14.582 --> 00:21:20.757
Um, okay, we, we use a lot of storytelling video.
00:21:20.757 --> 00:21:22.039
Is it's expensive?
00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:31.323
Um, it's definitely expensive to do well, it's also expensive to do poorly, uh, and it takes a lot of work, but the story is the important part.
00:21:31.323 --> 00:21:35.808
So we do a lot of internal storytelling of.
00:21:35.808 --> 00:21:43.835
I mean, actually, let me pull up a resource here.
00:21:43.835 --> 00:21:52.223
Our backend database of all the different types of stories which, no, you cannot see on camera, spent a couple years building that IP.
00:21:52.223 --> 00:22:01.037
So some of the stories that we'll tell internally are we'll talk a lot about our core values in action.
00:22:01.037 --> 00:22:02.882
I mentioned that one earlier.
00:22:02.882 --> 00:22:13.682
It's here's what core values look like in the real world, whether I'm telling a story about hey, here's what we did last week that was either good or bad, or here's something that I see coming up.
00:22:13.682 --> 00:22:16.749
I know we have this one client coming in.
00:22:16.749 --> 00:22:21.582
We've worked with them before and they're going to throw this challenge at us, and then I'll put it back on the team.
00:22:21.582 --> 00:22:26.846
Tell me a story about how you're going to use the core values in action in XYZ situation.
00:22:28.795 --> 00:22:30.702
Milestones and achievements are a really good one.
